Discussing Cork vs. Screwcaps during a Grab Bag Wine Tasting

Discussing Cork vs. Screwcaps during a Grab Bag Wine Tasting – Episode #654

April 7, 2009

Gary Vaynerchuk and Liza “The Wine Chick” Zimmerman taste 3 totally different wines and debate the relative merits of cork and screwcap enclosures.

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Comments on this episode(254) Leave a comment ›

“GV, I really find it hard to believe that screwtop wines flavors are g…” by eharms
“I enjoy the show, and Gary’s always very entertaining. I love the Pet…” by Ben
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Wines tasted in this episode:

2007 Mythic River Sauv BlancGreek White Wine
2006 Bleasdale Langhorne Crossing Shiraz/ CabernetAustralian Red Meritage
2007 Descendientes De Jose Palacios Bierzo PetalosBierzo

Links mentioned in today’s episode.

254 Responses

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April 8, 2009

Mary S
Hi,
I own my own wine shop. I do lots of tastings and open up lots of bottles of wine. I believe the % of “corked” wine is higher than you believe. I think it is more like 2-3%. I also believe some people are less receptive to it than others, especially men-no scientific proof, just my experience.

I LOVE your show and mostly agree with you. Just didn’t this time. Thanks for the shows and your spirit, you’re awesome.
April 8, 2009

MikeyTheHutt
Gary,

Great guest- nice debate about corks vs. screwtops- you never told us the dark side of screwtops before!

MTH
April 8, 2009

Gio
I actually liked the interaction between Liza and Gary. A lot of great classic wine debates were brought up: New World vs. Old World, Screwcap vs. Cork, and the role of brettanomyces in wine (I embrace the “poopiness” of wines, in particular, Red Burgundy).

At times, I felt like they were trying to measure each other’s wine knowledge, but without the awkwardness that sometimes follows. It’s great that Gary was unabashed in challenging Liza’s preconceived notions (e.g. screw caps, the conflict of interest of cork companies educating her on cork, “brettiness” Californian, Australian, Greek and Pinotage wines) even though there were mixed results with respect to the quality of the wines chosen here.
April 8, 2009

Murso
Where’s this “Skrewtop Kingdumb” you speak of? An alley in Newark? Perth Amboy? In college, there was a girl from Perth Amboy named Cookie.
April 8, 2009

Treb
I love wine keys. But, sometimes my wrist hurts. I like to twist off screws when opening white wines that cost less than $10.
QOTD: I want to get drunk off elephant food too.
April 8, 2009

Eugene
by the way, I come across corked bottles often, but think putting a percentage on it is silly. If I think a bottle might be corked, but find myself digging a bit too deep I let it go. I work on the restaurant side of things and found 3 bottles of a case of Macon-Villages to be CLEARLY corked. I mean wet-wet newspaper, even you could not deny TCA presence.

My point is, so what if 1 in 100 are corked. Most of the corked wine is found at the lower end of things where corks are not given the proper treatment. 1 in 100 has NOTHING to do with high end wines.
April 8, 2009

Eugene
You killed it today. Liza is your female counterpart, wine nerd with ADD.
April 8, 2009

jwink
Great guest, finally somone who knows about wine and can provide comparing/contrasting comments, and great wine chatter too.

I got a huge chuckle out of you saying you’re horrible at guessing numbers (like the jelly-beans) but ready to guess the number/percentage of bottles that are corked. I tend to agree with you as well it’s not 5% or some crazy number it’s less than less that 25 basis points (1/4 of 1% or 1 out of 400) maybe even as low as five basis points (1 out of every 2,000).

The cherries for cherry pie are called “Tart Cherries”, that’s the actual name and they come from the Traverse City area the cherry capital of the word (and becoming a great wine region as well).

THANK YOU for being prepared for the QOTD, finally an actual watcher.

It’s not the Quiz of the Day, but Question…to elicit feedback, and I didn’t know it before seeing it above.
April 8, 2009

Mike Best
Cool show!

Interesting discussion on screwcaps. I work in a restaurant/pub with a good wine trade. We notice about 2% of the wines are too badly affected to drink.

It may be more because some customers do not like to say, or would not notice it was cork contamination. I always give the wines a quick sniff before serving them but it is not always easy to tell from a discreet sniff from a bottle just opened.

One thing that scares me is that wether a wine has a screwcap or a cork we still go through the ritual of the customer trying the wine before serving it to the other geusts. I have noticed a disturbing and increasing trend of peole asking each other wether they “like it” as if they would want another if they didn’t like it. I am not looking forward to the embarrassing day when I have to explain that.

I’m all for the screwcap, although my bottle opener is my pride and joy.
April 8, 2009

kodi
Very mixed on this show. It looked like there were two tigers on one mountain and a little competition going on – not that this is bad. But a little uncomfortable at times and did not see much chemistry between the two. So, I think she was a good technical guest but just not clicking together.

Cork… just slows down getting to the good stuff… to me I don’t care. It is the wine that is the important thing. I do not believe I have ever had a corked wine – but there again I don’t have a palette either. We currently go through about 4 bottles a week so we must be pretty lucky or the stats include a whole area of wines that we do not touch.

QOTD – who cares
April 8, 2009

Manny
Fun Episode! Great enthusiasm like always and honest responses from Gary. Was not digging the wine chick at all…i tried… but she didn’t appeal to me(in anyway).
“The proof is in the pudding”, and i really enjoyed Gary shutting her arguments down several times! haha!

Fun Episode but lady needs to go!
April 8, 2009

Neil
QOTD: Amarula.

I liked the banter with the wine chick – it’s fun to hear two wine geeks nerd it up once in a while.
April 8, 2009

Johnnyutah
Great show u 2 should get together and do a Portuguese show…soon!

Cork: 1 in 12 bottles has some (even if minute) TCA or cork taint

Screwcaps: mercaptans or SO2 reduction…sulfur/rotten eggs smell that in most instances can blow off if allowed to breath

QOTD: is it loquats?
April 8, 2009

Murso
Amarula liqueur – tasty stuff, but I’m not into cream liqueurs.
April 8, 2009

Marshall
The screw cap is awesome! i don’t care what anyone says. Also, I agree that people are way to extreme about the corking thing. my estimation is that about 1 in every thousand is corked, or maybe 1 in every 2000.
April 8, 2009

WineWoman
QOTD: The question should be more spontaneous–not something that can be answered by Google or an encyclopedia(in the olden days).

Still a good show overall.
April 8, 2009

DrEdwardo
I bit my tongue, counted to 10, etc., swearing that I would *not* post on this topic but …

First off, let me state right off the bat, I am a loyal Vayniac, having watched every episode since #76. I respect what Gary is trying to do, how he switches things up in order to attract new wine drinkers, to expand one’s palate, to poke at sacred wine cows. (Even though some of the episodes are duffers as a consequence).

But ….

This brings me to the topic of TCA sensitivity. In clinical trials, *some* if not many people can taste TCA in PARTS PER BILLION. Others, who are otherwise very good tasters, CANNOT TASTE IT AT ALL. Given the cork industry itself, who have a very vested interest in stating otherwise, think the incidents of cork taint to be much higher than what you are stating (i.e. they think it is ~1% – or 1 bottle in 100 – see http://www.corkqc.com/currentresearch/research.htm – whereas you think it is more like “one in thousands”), you might be part of the latter group.

You constantly expound to “trust your own palate,” yet when people state that they are tasting a corked wine, you sneak behind their backs to test for TCA to prove them wrong. Which, at least to my mind, is somewhat hypocritical.

Notwithstanding this hypocrisy, Gary’s “evidence” is just anecdotal: “I had a few purportedly duff bottles tested and they weren’t off.” I have just as strong personal anecdotal evidence where I have brought back corked bottles to my favourite wine merchant, who couldn’t taste the taint, had the agents test the bottles, only to confirm my suspicion. I myself am very sensitive to TCA.

Liz was one of Gary’s best guests to date.

Liz dislikes screwcaps because of the prevalence of reductive faults. Many if not most of these can be corrected by small changes in winemaking, i.e., using less SO2. Traditional levels of added SO2 were necessary as an antioxidant for corked stopped bottles, however, those same levels are unnecessary in screwcapped bottles, given their better airtight seal, resulting occasionally in reductive faults. (High school chemistry lesson: reduction is the opposite of oxidation; having an antioxidant in the absence of air results in a reductive solution). The winemaking industry is catching on to using lower levels of SO2. The bonus is that these lower levels of SO2 will benefit those people who are sensitive to sulphides.

Many if not most of these reductive faults will either blow off with air (unlike TCA which only gets worse with air) or dropping a clean copper penny into the decanter. There is no credible cure for TCA-tainted wine.

Notwithstanding all the above, I think Gary made these statements as much to “stir things up” as anything else. As is his wont.
April 8, 2009

Daniel Dion
GAry,

I got a question more than a comment…..I watch your show every day and I am a lurker…I promise I will leave comments later…promise. Love the show.

I want to buy a 220 bottle wineceller http://www.vintagekeeper.com/web/new/

with the 2005 quality…i think I have to do something …we drink those wines wayyyy too young… I am into heay weights….Cahors…Madiran…bandol…

Let me know what you think…maybe a program on keeping wine for 20 years….
April 8, 2009

Scottie P
Fun show. I really enjoied the Cork vs. Screw-top debate.
QOTD: I don’t like trivia questions as the QOTD. It’s pointless.
April 8, 2009

CHICAGO MARK
You gave the 2006 Descendientes De Jose Palacios Bierzo Petalos a 92+
Was there that much of a difference in the 2007. Seems like you didnt like it much.
April 8, 2009

Harry
Good point Andrew D on the Aussie experiments from the 70s. Its a misconception that there is no aging potential for screwcaps, as the various liners for stevlins are very precise in the amount of air seepage, as opposed to corks which vary more dramatically. Sommelier Journal recently had a good article on the issue, but there’s obviously a large debate. I’d love for you to bring back George Taber or another expert to address the issue, as I think American buyers are far too enamored by corks, where as Germany, Austria, not to mention OZ and NZ have been won over by the clear evidence in favor of screwcaps.
As persuasive as the cork industry is, reduction is really a non-issue, since you can just decant and the sulfur notes blow off pretty quickly. A wine spoiled by a dry, leaky or tainted cork is lost forever. While there is something for the tradition of pulling a cork from a great bottle, unless the winery is investing in top notch corks, at $1.50-2.50 a shot, they should protect their wines and go with the more effective screw cap, in my opinion.
April 8, 2009

zestycook
WOW Great episode… such interesting stuff here – It is my first visit and I love it!
April 8, 2009

dcrob
But what about the aesthetics of the cork? Not that im against screw tops, but popping a cork is kinda cool..
April 8, 2009

Russ
Great show.

QOTD: Amarula. You need to try Japanese Umeshu, that’s some tasty stuff.
April 8, 2009

Emma B
JB’s first point is precisely why so many people claim they’ve never had corked wine. If the TCA’s not in your face, then you need to drink from 2 or more bottles of the wine to be certain. It could be flat, dull, lifeless and lacking in fruit because it’s a cr@ppy wine, or because it’s actually corked. There a multiple wines out there which people will never bother buying again coz they thought they were naff, whilst they were actually just low-level corked.

And to re-iterate what several people have pointed out, it’s the cork processing that’s the problem, not the cork itself.

Far better environmentally to keep the forests. And yup, you’ll never beat the romance of a corkscrew with a screw cap. Even if a nice man from Riedel did once show me a VERY COOL trick for opening screw cap bottles – involves running the neck along your arm & back – may have to go & practise to remember how it’s done…