Talking Biodynamics with Nicolas Joly – Part II

Talking Biodynamics with Nicolas Joly – Part II – Episode #629

February 24, 2009

Gary Vaynerchuk and Nicolas Joly continue their discussion about wine philosophy while tasting 2 more intriguing Chenin Blancs.

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Comments on this episode(185) Leave a comment ›

“QOTD: i am mostly happy with most of the wines i buy. Some bad experie…” by monden
“Wow!!! An amazing show with an amazing guest!! I’ve been getting into…” by monden
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Wines tasted in this episode:

2004 Nicholas Joly Clos de la Coulee de Serrant
2005 Nicolas Joly Clos de la Bergerie

185 Responses

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May 23, 2009

monden
QOTD: i am mostly happy with most of the wines i buy. Some bad experience with cheaper wines lately, but overall, my batting average is pretty good. Well over .500 in the last 6 months.
May 22, 2009

monden
Wow!!! An amazing show with an amazing guest!! I’ve been getting into biodynamism into late 2005. Read a bit about before, but never actually tasted anything biodynamic before that to my knowledge. The first Biodynamic wine i had was a Domaine vîret 2003 cuvée renaissance Côte-du-Rhône village and was totally blown away with it. Of course, the ambiance, i was in south west of France in very good but very small restaurant where my friend and host brought me and it was quite amazing too,so the experience of with who and with what food you have a wine with is enhancing the experience of the wine.(or screwing it up!!, if the ambiance is bad!!) I bought some of the 2006 vintage and also bought some of the 2003 and they were all fantastic. So i truly believe that it is the best way to express terroir, a sense of place. I watched the first episode you did on Biodynamism and only one out of 4 wines was really good, the alsacian. This is also true, the fact that even if you treat the soil with respect, if the terroir is bad, or the winemaker, the wine will be bad as well. I think the same applies to organically grown foods. They are not all good. But when they are, as is for wine they are truly spectacular
April 5, 2009

Karli
I’ve been putting this two part episode off until I sat down to work on my biodynamic wine paper, and I must say, Nicholas Joly shows such great passion for his work that I now have a great excitement to work on my research. It was wonderful to see that the points you always fight for on this show were also what he fights for when supporting biodynamic wines and it was wonderful. More than anything, this episode put life into a scientific and philosophic matter with great power! Joly was a great guest on the show, and I hope you may have him on again at a later time!

QOTD: I can’t say Cornell’s Intro to Wines and Vines Class is filled with incredible wines, but the experience of flavors and smells of wild ranges do make me happy. And since I am under the drinking age and not many people I know drink wine at school, I haven’t had much experience out of class and away from home, but do hope in time that I can experience more delectable wines that will truly express the flavor of nature.
March 16, 2009

Dessert Wine Nerd
Wow. Nicolas Joly gets my vote for the most interesting and fun guest youve ever had on the show. With all his laughing and whatnot I was guessing the two of you hit the sauce BEFORE filming. Either way I dont know that youve had a guest that seems more passionate about wine than him. Truly a person we need to keep around as long as possible. QOTD: The last two wines ive had tasted spoiled/corked, which is a shame. Im still quite happy with the wines I select.
March 16, 2009

Russ J
I think that the obvious candidate for the BD “wine chug” experiment is Sasha Vaynerchuk. Man can pound. I recall him polishing off like 4 glasses, or more, of wine (no spitting) in an 18 minute show!

QOTD: Sometimes.
March 16, 2009

JayZee
Very interesting show, although I don’t agree with everything he stated.

QOTD: I am very happy with most of the wine I drink, and most of it is not biodynamic. I have no objection to biodynamic wines at all, but there are a lot of wonderful wines that I have had over the years that are definitely not biodynamic.
March 12, 2009

Jeff Lonigro
These episodes were absolutely amazing. I love this guy! His passion for wine, and his approach to making it along with his approach to life are so inspiring. We need more people like him in the world.
Great job Gary!
March 9, 2009

stevo
GV — One of the best shows you’ve ever had, if not the best.

QOTD — I am happy with around 50% of the wine that I drink.
March 6, 2009

Seanie "B"
Nicholas Joly, wow fantastic guest. Such a passionate guy. I’m in the field of medical science and they way that Nicholas talks about his work reminds me of a research scientist who is studding the finite principals of a complicated mechanism. He is astonished by the dynamism of this system and memorized by the symphonic beauty which is created by the undeniable power that nature holds. He shares his finding and experiences with a profoundly honest belief that that comes from deep within his heart and psyche.

This was a extremely passionate set of episodes. It was a pleasure to listen to someone of Nicholas Joly’s caliber talk with you about wine!
March 4, 2009

Alex
QOTD: I do enjoy the wines I drink but Mr Joly has a very good point that the emotional, life changing, passionate experiences in wine are very few and far between. I’ve had the opportunity to try some biodynamic wines and they definitely strike that emotional cord. Benziger, a sonoma biodynamic winery definitely does a good job of striking that emotional cord for me.

I have a question though … what does the biodynamic process do for bottle aging in perfect conditions?

Mr Joly was an amazing charismatic guest … we need him on the thundershow again!
March 4, 2009

Wim
I love to hear Nicolas talk about his wines. This video is awesome Gary. I remember my first Coulée de serrant and frankly, i was stunned. I tasted it every half hour for the whole evening and everytime it was changing. It’s like tasting 10 different types of wine for the price of 1

This guy is a monument.
March 3, 2009

FrankM
Oh how I want to like his wines…he has one of the greatest sites in the Loire, yet his wines, up until recently have sucked….and they have sucked at a very high price point.

BioDynamics? No thanks I never talk religion when I drink wine.
March 2, 2009

Alos
That was fantastic I have to go and visit!
I am happy sometimes with the wine which I drink. Cheers
March 2, 2009

Heather W
QOTD: I think the action of drinking wine makes me happy, especially when I am among good company, and I also think that the fundamental idea of what wine is also makes me happy, but am I happy with the actual wines I drink? Sometimes, but I am always learning, and trying to find new wines that speak boldly and inspire all of the senses.
March 2, 2009

Scottie P
Amazing 2-part show Gary! Nicolas Joly is astoundingly interesting and entertaining. Please bring him back to talk about anything.
QOTD: I would have to say yes, but that is certainly a loaded question. One day I could look back and say “Wow, I was drinking crappy wine in those days.”
I am happy with the wines available as long as there are solid wines to be found under the $20 mark; and there certainly are! Of course the PA Government forces big limitations on my options… I guess they know what’s best for me.
March 1, 2009

Don
QOTD: Profound question indeed… I’m not happy with the incredibly high prices of Californian wine, however, I’ve been very satisfied in the value I’ve been finding in South America. I have never had a biodynamic wine but I’m very intrigued after watching these episodes.
March 1, 2009

Brigitte Armenier
I certainly very much appreciate the call for knowledge, logic and reason, experiment and data when it comes to Biodynamics. Science is part of our most noble achievements in our culture and should never be dismissed. Now the problem is that, within the scientific community itself, the debate rages about the contributions brought during the 20th century by men like Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr and David Bohm in the fields of relativity and quantum physics. For modern physics stipulates that the invisible is at the heart of the visible… while the application sciences still largely base their thinking upon the findings inherited from the 19th century, and thus try to explain the invisible in terms of the visible, in terms of experiment and data solely. By definition, the field of knowledge of the latter is true and valuable, but limited and reduced to the Finite. By definition, the knowledge of the quantitative and mathematical formalism can’t bring the understanding of the qualitative changes. And the warnings of the modern physicists are numerous which call for the reunion of knowledge and understanding, quantitative and qualitative, science and consciousness: see for example Hans-Peter Durr, nuclear physicist and former director of the Max-Planck-Institute of Physics in Germany.
There is definitely a knowledge about Biodynamics which can be issued from the Euclidian geometry. Or from arithmetic and the rational numbers of algebra. But Biodynamics only begins to get understandable once one enters into the fields of the non-Euclidean geometries, or of the irrational numbers of calculus, or else with the Chaos Theory which all are concerned with the Infinite. Studies like the ones brought by Ernst-August Muller and David E. Auerbach from the Fluid Dynamics Research of the Max-Planck-Institute entirely backup for example the processes of dynamisation and chaos used by the biodynamists. One of their conclusions stipulates that: ” when one elaborates by Biodynamic dynamisation the Biodynamic preparation to be pulverized on the land, one creates a product that vivifies the soil.”
We can’t therefore but be thankful to all modern physicists,astrophysicists, scientists and farmers who have had, over the past few decades, the courage and honesty to reconsider the old restrictive paradigms of science. They are helping us to open our focused vision to a more peripheral one which embraces many possibilities.
March 1, 2009

vinosseur
Great Show Gary! And, a great guest who I admire.

QOTD: I seek out wines that are interesting and are made usually in an organic or biodynamic way by farmers and very small producers. Therefore, I am usually quite satisfied with the wines that I drink and am rarely disappointed. I prefer not waste my energy on wines that I don’t like or that are poorly made.
March 1, 2009

malliemcg
Not really – I’m finding in Australia that a large amount of homogenisation is occuring, especially when you get big companies buying smaller ones and changing or charging a fortune for wine xyz, which was once a great buy, or worse changing the way it’s put together.
March 1, 2009

Dan-o
GV – I have to tell you that this may have been my favorite show of all time. I was intrigued with NJ’s philosophy about wine-making and life. Would love to try the Chenin’s as well.

QOTD – Oui et non! J’aime bien le vin qu’est natural. Mais quelquefois je ne peux pas trouver les vins biodynamie!
February 28, 2009

Sonia
Happy with the wines I drink? Sometimes I am, sometimes I’m thrilled and sometimes I’m just satisified that I have the time and the means to drink a glass of wine that may or may not be satisfactory. If I hate it I won’t drink it and that rarely happens because most of the wines I have I bought sfter tasting them at the wineries. But yeah sometimes I drink a wine that’s good, but there’s nothing to it… I’ve only had bio-dynamic wine from one winery so I will be looking out for those.
February 28, 2009

Tom T.
Very happy with the wines I drink.
February 28, 2009

YoungDave
Nicolas Joly is a GOD! I am so behind what this man has said in this two-parter. Profound. Fantastic Ep.!

QOTD: I am happy when I drink wines that are a little quirky, a little unique, and have some texture, flavor, or aroma that SETS IT APART from other wines. I find I am underwhelmed and bored with wines after the first half glass if it doesn’t show its individuality and make me continue to smell and try to pinpoint what its unique flavor or aroma reminds me of. Wines need to be more unique! Wines need to be more unlike all other large production wines that are well made and taste like other examples of that varietal or region. What’s even worse is when wines from regions steeped in tradition and history taste like any other new world fruit bomb with no sense of that fantastic, unique place!! I tasted a 2004 cult Ribera del Duero that was 15.5% alcohol and tasted like a blackberry jam fireball. Ribera? Tempranillo? Well made, yes. Pricey, I’m sure. Unique and representing this beautiful historic region, not even close.
February 28, 2009

Kevin
Nicolas, to be honest, I am not satisfied with the wines I drink. I very much feel as you said “i am at dinner with someone who is very smart but has nothing to say”. I like it very much that you compare wine with music. I feel that now the things I am drinking are Haydn’s 94th very calm and quiet or Vivaldi 4 seasons, when I am looking for more of a Beethoven 5/7, Mozart 39/41. I want things that are powerful yet restrained, refined, well thought out and prepared, “bring the thunder” but also will not kill me like a Beethoven 9
February 28, 2009

Andres
Loweeel,

I can agree with you that there is marketing thrown in into BD, just as with everything else, and that a number of producers are not serious and only trying to cash in on the trend. But that shouldn’t prevent us from recognizing the quality of those producers that are turning out really good wines.

On the other hand, in my opinion producers like Joly, Trimbach, Zind Humbrecht, Leflaive, Chapoutier, Marcel Deiss, Josmeyer, Pingus, Leroy, Prieuré Roch, Nikolaihof, Cullen, Castagna, Frogs Leap or Bonny Doon, for instance, were all already pretty well known to embrace BD just for mktg reasons -and some of them have been working on this for over 20 years before BD started to recognized,too. I am sure a lot of people knew about the quality of these wines well before they realized they were using BD.

In the past few years I have heard Bill H’s story one hundred times. I have seen soil studies of a producer that has been organic for decades, has tested BD, and realized that the parcel that he treated with BD for two years is looking better than the one next to it that has been treated organically for over ten years. How can you explain the enhanced microbiological activiy in the BD treated soil, if all other variables have been cancelled?

Also every time you talk with a producer like my friend in Mendoza, or Bill H in Oregon, or Joly here, they talk about quality of the fruit and health of the vines, never of “mystical creatures like gnomes, sylphs, and undines.” They will tell you that the position of the planets has an influence in liquids, yes -but then again it is widely acknowledged that tides are influenced by moon phases too.

You can read Philippe Armenier’s entry: this doesn’t mean that BD producers don’t run scientific studies of their soils, either. It just means they apply different procedures, not that they rely only in “pagan rituals”.

As for tasting BD vs non BD, I have to say that a high percentage of the non BD wines -organic or not- has similar tastes, which actually makes sense: they are made out of 3 or 4 clones chosen out of 3 or 4 grape varieties, fermented with the same yeasts, made in similar ways and using the same oak barrels, even the same wine consultants quite often. I have had both good and bad BD wines, but they are usually “different” wines.

Lastly, they are not necessarily more expensive, either: take Jean Pierre Amoreau, for instance. He is one of the most fanatics out there, his winery passing from one generation to the next for centuries, adding almost no sulfites to his wines or not adding them at all, yet his wines can age for decades. And what is the retail price of his Ch. Le Puy from Cotes de Francs just behind Pomerol in Bordeaux? 14 Euros…